Feedback on Isi drain change

[Razordagawd]

I'll be as positive as possible on this one so I expect a reply at least, please!

Assassins have always done this stuff on bosses all the time. People have never complained about it. It's a part of the game and yet it's once again being changed! Why?

Isiloon in CZ is supposed to boost activity and it does! So the issue I suppose that it dies too quick, not about who takes it all the time or about what class is the strongest pvp-wise while this mini-event is going on. The problem here is that this is not just a random NPC who wandered too far from abyss, it's the best boss in game at the moment with the best drops - so taking into account who takes it is also important.

Currently, the common populace suggests that "anyone can create a level 50 sin with sword breakers and take it" -- something that might seem cheap, but that at the same time is easily available for anyone to do therefore I fail to see the problem. If these people care about the pk activity then why are they not logging their main accounts to murder these low levels? If anyone can create assassins, then if anything it makes it more fair for anyone to take it, because it ultimately comes down to skill and awareness.

You might ask "what skill, razor? just press 1 button to drain or even worse - macro it!" -- I would say you are correct, for the most part it does seem that easy, but you seem to be forgetting a crucial detail. Didn't this event boost activity? We concluded that it does, and what happens then? Do you think it's easy for a low level melee class to survive in the very heart of CZ bowl? It is not, so this becomes really challenging to do. Even on a level 80 sin, you are at constant risk of dying.

Let's be honest here. While the event boosts activity, most people are actually interested in killing Isiloon herself. Whether she takes 60 seconds more to die or not, nothing will change, making this change ultimately useless (for your desired goal, which is increasing the duration of the bowl activity). She will not take that much longer to die because she's really weak, and the regen can be very easily beaten. This suggests that the problem may lie elsewhere entirely, and not be about drains? Let's see how fast she dies now. I don't think much will change aside from taking 1 minute or 2 more. Are those 2 minutes worth changing the core mechanic of a nearly 2 decade old game? Time will tell I suppose.

Now then, to address the elephant in the room. Because with every balance change in every game, there are consequences. If you nerf the S tier characters in a MOBA or any game, someone else is expected to take their spot next patch. So who would that be in this case? Who is the best suited class to claim Isiloon everytime with little to no risk? I'm thinking of a class that already reaped the most benefit out of Isiloon spawns due to how easy it is to destroy everyone surrounding the center monument with ease, all at the same time!

Of course I'm talking about PRIES- kidding. It's the mage guys. The damned freaking mages again.

So mages not only harvest the easiest NP out of nuking mid every 20 seconds, but now they also have the edge when taking the boss herself. Their DoT and staff damage far outdamage anything sins or warriors will throw at Isiloon, and they are ranged on top of it. They also get insane value out of a longer fight on Isiloon, because lol it doesn't take a genius to figure out what is going to happen if any melee clan attempts to kill Isiloon from point blank range throughout a long period of time - it's like painting a target on our backs. So it's really the best of both worlds - DoT it from range and nuke anyone that tries to dps it down as warriors or rogues. Even if the mages don't have the initial damage at the beginning, they can just randomly come while it's low HP and clear everyone on it.

Before, mages had to make a choice - either make 10k+ nps or log your drainers to attempt for a drop. Now that choice no longer exists.

I seriously suggest reconsidering because this event just turned from a tense contest where awareness of your surroundings is key to yet another mage ridden extravaganza.

Let me give you some alternative solutions.

• Increase the HP regen - A simple solution that can extend pk activity time, albeit not for long (therefore no different than your fix). We gotta face reality here. Isiloon will die quick regardless of any change, the difference being a minute or 2 at best.
• Making the spawns random in bowl - Not quite random, but alongside the bowl road in maybe 12, 6, 9 and 3. This would be a change aimed at diversifying who gets the drop though, and that was clearly not the goal of this drain change. Tbh it's not easy to just extend the duration of pk activity putting your chips all in one event that happens 2 times a day at best. At this point you might as well create more avenues to boost activity as opposed to massively changing one that has additional implications to it? Anyway, I digress...
• Increase defense and magic resistance - Drains will still take it pretty low but it will take a while to kill. No, I didn't mention flat %dmg reduction like you did with Atross, Riote, and both bowl monuments. Nobody likes that lol.

I don't think the #1 clan in the server was ever asked about this in this "Community Outreach" program so we're off to a bad start already.

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2020 by Razordagawd

[savagek]

How about we get a clear reasoning behind why this decision was made.

So far we've had conflicting reports that seem to either cite that it's unfair that rogues, even low lvl, low gear ones are getting it, or that it's to increase the time and amount of PK around isiloon time. So yeah, what exactly was the thought process behind this change? 

Edited June 20, 2020 by savagek

[twostars]

Okay... so:

Why was this change made?
Because while it may be common/standard behaviour for rogues to burst & drain bosses instantly, negating basically any and all difficulty, consistently taking loot and killing off PVP, we feel that it's a little unreasonable.

Why wasn't everyone consulted?
Clan leaders eligible in the Community Outreach program were, and in fact it was the general consensus there *to* do something about it.
If any leaders were removed from the program, it is because they demonstrated they weren't capable of discussing issues in a civil manner. Alternative representatives were since, however, invited.

Having said that.
Contrary to popular belief, we don't like nerfing things. We understand that many feel a rogue's utility is for boss kills (considering a very large portion of their boss damage is inevitably drains).
So, the question is then - how do we solve the [immediate] problem of rogues [even undergeared/underleveled rogues] immediately killing Isiloon in CZ and sabotaging the intended PVP effect.

So we once again took this to the currently online clan leaders in the Community Outreach program.
We've been talking this over for the last few hours, and we currently have a potential solution (note that proposals of increased HP, HP regen etc do not work - increased HP is pointless with HP% drains, and regen really only heavily favours rogues doing the most damage via drains, which doesn't tend to change a lot - we discussed a lot of these same suggestions).

Note that it's *very* tentative, but in the interests of community discussion/communication, for the sake of those who weren't already relayed this, our current proposal is to turn drains into a DoT specifically for Isiloon (in CZ) only. We'll leave the door open for flagging any potential future similar bosses, but first and foremost the issue is with CZ Isiloon here so we want to exclusively target this.

How would this work?
When a drain is used on Isiloon (in CZ only), it would convert its damage dealt into a DoT. It would do the exact same amount of damage it does already, just spaced out - presumably over the next minute (or thereabouts).
DoTs persist on death, so you wouldn't be losing damage here - it'd functionally be the same as it was originally, there would just be no immediate burst.

Without a burst, technically that means drains are considerably more valuable since it's based on their HP at the time. This may or may not need to be taken into consideration more [completely open to suggestions/feedback], but it would likely be countered a little by Isiloon's existing HP regen.

With the damage spaced out, it means Isiloon wouldn't immediately die, while still preserving the original 5%/10% drain, which essentially solves the problem of it dying too quickly, while not actually nerfing rogues - so they keep their boss utility.

Again -- this is just a proposal made a few hours ago. It's not concrete.
A few hours isn't enough to properly discuss an issue, especially not across all parties. In this post, for instance, I've already pointed out a potential issue with it which requires some thought.
We're completely open to suggestions & feedback, so let us know what you think. And again, please bear in mind that we intend to only apply this to Isiloon in CZ currently. Nothing else -- especially not PVP.

So let us know what you think, and please keep it civil. We're here to discuss how to solve problems, not argue about them.

Thanks.

[BroOk]

3 hours ago, Razordagawd said:

 

• Increase the HP regen - A simple solution that can extend pk activity time, albeit not for long (therefore no different than your fix). We gotta face reality here. Isiloon will die quick regardless of any change, the difference being a minute or 2 at best.
• Making the spawns random in bowl - Not quite random, but alongside the bowl road in maybe 12, 6, 9 and 3. This would be a change aimed at diversifying who gets the drop though, and that was clearly not the goal of this drain change. Tbh it's not easy to just extend the duration of pk activity putting your chips all in one event that happens 2 times a day at best. At this point you might as well create more avenues to boost activity as opposed to massively changing one that has additional implications to it? Anyway, I digress...
• Increase defense and magic resistance - Drains will still take it pretty low but it will take a while to kill. No, I didn't mention flat %dmg reduction like you did with Atross, Riote, and both bowl monuments. Nobody likes that lol.

I 

Godd ideas i agree on all of them.

spaming isiloon just on 1 place its retarded. and d changes have been make today with patch will help less i guess, theres was players doing NT to strong nation just to drain and im pretty sure they will keep do it since still drain its too strong. so i can say also:

. Make NT scroll able to do 1 NT every 24 HOURS.

.Make special event NP bonuses every time theres isiloon annoucement.

.Dont make it immortal just more random respawn places.

Edited June 20, 2020 by BroOk

[Razordagawd]

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Why was this change made?

Because while it may be common/standard behaviour for rogues to burst & drain bosses instantly, negating basically any and all difficulty, consistently taking loot and killing off PVP, we feel that it's a little unreasonable.

What exactly do you mean by "Killing off PVP". This is just speculation for now, but I'm positive that Isiloon (with these changes) will survive maybe one more minute, at best two or three. Do you think those additional minutes are saving PVP activity*?

 

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Why wasn't everyone consulted?
Clan leaders eligible in the Community Outreach program were, and in fact it was the general consensus there *to* do something about it.
If any leaders were removed from the program, it is because they demonstrated they weren't capable of discussing issues in a civil manner. Alternative representatives were since, however, invited.

I recall people being civil. No insults were thrown, and things were politely asked, albeit with the parties being visibly annoyed because of the lack of communication. Anyway, let's move on from this.

 

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Having said that.
Contrary to popular belief, we don't like nerfing things. We understand that many feel a rogue's utility is for boss kills (considering a very large portion of their boss damage is inevitably drains).
So, the question is then - how do we solve the [immediate] problem of rogues [even undergeared/underleveled rogues] immediately killing Isiloon in CZ and sabotaging the intended PVP effect.

I didn't touch this on the first point, but here it is again. So then I guess we can all agree that for all intended purposes, the point of these changes are to increase PVP activity.

For one, PVP activity won't increase because isiloon now survives a little more. Two, if PVP activity is the ultimate goal, aren't there other events that can be ADDED as opposed to tweaking the only one that we currently have? Kill the GM is coming I think, no? and there are now CR's and there used to be NP increase events. Why not just make CRs more attractive, or add boss events, or something else? Is PVP activity the only reason behind this? Or is it because a certain clan is getting drops? Need clarity on this, because if it's just pvp activity - as previously mentioned, there are way more things that can be implemented to help.

 

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So we once again took this to the currently online clan leaders in the Community Outreach program.
We've been talking this over for the last few hours, and we currently have a potential solution (note that proposals of increased HP, HP regen etc do not work - increased HP is pointless with HP% drains, and regen really only heavily favours rogues doing the most damage via drains, which doesn't tend to change a lot - we discussed a lot of these same suggestions).

Note that it's *very* tentative, but in the interests of community discussion/communication, for the sake of those who weren't already relayed this, our current proposal is to turn drains into a DoT specifically for Isiloon (in CZ) only. We'll leave the door open for flagging any potential future similar bosses, but first and foremost the issue is with CZ Isiloon here so we want to exclusively target this.

The problem here is that you think most of the people in this program are not seeing their own interests in mind. They never get the drop therefore they are okay with butchering the entire game since it doesn't affect them.

As for the suggested changes, HP regen does help because rogues get a drain every 60 seconds, not every 10 (regen happens every 10s normally).

On the bolded and underlined part, and? This is about pvp activity no? Or is it about rogues getting drops as they have since 2004? There are some contradictions going on here.

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One last thing. Even if drains are now a DoT (which is in my honest opinion, a VERY custom and disappointing change), Isiloon will still die in like a minute of those drains ticking in every 2 seconds. So nothing really changes.

If PVP activity is the concern, then add more stuff for players! More events, more activities, better Collection Races!

If noob rogues or that one clan getting drops is the concern (even though Sweach mages on their noob rogues have taken it a couple times) is the concern, then something else can be done about this. Something less abrupt and random such as modifying the core game. In all honesty, touching base mechanics is the LAST thing that should be considered at all times - people are still playing this game because of the mechanics, not because of the graphics, or the questing, or the benevolent admins.

Something to keep in mind.

Edited June 20, 2020 by Razordagawd

[savagek]

The DoT idea is fine to me - but it highlights how stupid this point is to be honest. It really is about the fact that Isiloon dies in 10-20 seconds and not a minute or two?

 

Your changing the fundamentals of a 20 year old game so there is an extra minute of pk around the Isiloon?! An isiloon that spawns twice a day?

[twostars]

25 minutes ago, savagek said:

The DoT idea is fine to me - but it highlights how stupid this point is to be honest. It really is about the fact that Isiloon dies in 10-20 seconds and not a minute or two?

 

Your changing the fundamentals of a 20 year old game so there is an extra minute of pk around the Isiloon?! An isiloon that spawns twice a day?

Please explain how replacing upfront damage with a DoT for one specific case is "changing the fundamentals of a 20 year old game".

The fact is, it is considered acceptable and standard for a group of rogues - that don't even necessarily need to be max level - to jump in, destroy the boss in seconds, and take the loot. Because they have upfront HP% based drains. This is about making it more fair for all involved more than anything. This behaviour as it stands is frankly unacceptable.
The proposed change manages to address this while still not actually nerfing rogues, so it's a lot fairer for all involved.

The fact that they can do this, and completely destroy the purpose of the boss to begin with in the process is ridiculous and I don't know why people are trying to argue otherwise. How is this a "stupid point"?
I agree - nerfing things is bad. Rogues have drawn the short end of the stick a few times lately, so all things considered, the previous change is not... great.

The DoT is a viable solution to these problems. They retain all their damage, but allow everyone a chance to kill the boss while keeping it alive for quite a bit longer - even if that's not *too* long.

[Razordagawd]

16 minutes ago, twostars said:

 and take the loot.

So again, is this about the pvp activity or about who gets the loot? Which one is it lol.

Isiloon will still die incredibly quick making this change pointless. If pvp activity is the issue then more events can be added!

Even making it so that below 50 and 25% HP the boss becomes incredibly more difficult to kill would go a long way as opposed to nerfing the weakest class in game currently.

 

[IGeisha]

4 saat önce, Razordagawd dedi:

For friends who think the only problem here is still pk, I'll say a few short things. The incident is not just killing pk, but I am one of the few users who stated that the isiloon creature that was born in the same place in this ronark land region should die 3 seconds after it was born and that it should be worked on in the discod leader chat, especially to me. While making this proposal, we certainly did not want them to restrict the rogue class or to make a restraint that would only affect the rogue class. When Isiloon was born, in the middle of the ronark land, we said that if the race is stronger, people come from that race with no item and 70 level characters, cut the isiloon who died in 3 seconds and take advantage of this situation without effort. In general, we suggested that this issue should be considered and I do not think anyone will deny this situation. Changes in the percentage skills of the Rogue class only affect the boss of the isiloon as stated, if the big problem is to change the drops from the box of isiloon and remove drops such as Chitin shield, Iron Neck, Iron Belt, Glass Belt, and your Percentage skills remain as before and Then nobody will be able to kill that boss so easily with 70 level itemless characters and gain an unfair advantage. At that time, both the valuable items on the server will remain valuable and people who do not play the game actively will not be able to benefit from them. You will understand that the purpose of friends who will oppose this suggestion will not be closely related to the good future of the server. It doesn't have to continue like this because it has been like this for years, but it is really sad to defend this situation since there are many faulty and corrupt systems and functions for years.

if necessary, reduce the damage of mageles against the isiloon boss, there is no problem for us, but you know that this functioning order is not correct. However, I think your concerns are different, if you are aware, we are not saying this for Ultima in the Bifrost region because people are trying to make a pleasant and long war and try to get there and kill that boss.
in general I think 90% of the concerns are due to the loot from the boss
 

 

[Razordagawd]

5 minutes ago, emreman11 said:

asdfg

Sorry bro but admins have explicitly said that this is about pk activity time and time again, not drops(?)

Edited June 20, 2020 by Razordagawd

[IGeisha]

No, there is no such thing. You should read @ twostars's explanations well.

 

[TabbyCat]

2 hours ago, twostars said:

Again -- this is just a proposal made a few hours ago. It's not concrete.
A few hours isn't enough to properly discuss an issue, especially not across all parties. In this post, for instance, I've already pointed out a potential issue with it which requires some thought.
We're completely open to suggestions & feedback, so let us know what you think. And again, please bear in mind that we intend to only apply this to Isiloon in CZ currently. Nothing else -- especially not PVP.

With all due respect, if this hasn't been enough time to properly discuss an issue, in future I'd suggest doing this and testing it WITH the entire community before rolling it out live.

 

Whether your decision is made or not, a forum poll or announcement AHEAD of time gives people time to express their opinions rather than relaying on JUST clan leaders. And I might point out that 90% of clans don't take Isiloon, and you wonder why they're complaining about it because they don't have the skill to do so. You then implemented a change without involving the clan who regularly takes the boss. Hopefully you'll be able to step back and objectively view how this comes across. Consult clan leaders for general changes, fine, if that works have at it, but once you make a decision, why not give the wider community a chance to at least raise any valid points that the few "elite" people haven't considered.

[savagek]

1 hour ago, twostars said:

Please explain how replacing upfront damage with a DoT for one specific case is "changing the fundamentals of a 20 year old game".

Because the fundamentals of an assassin is extremely high and quick burst damage, not DoT's. It's a class built on both its AC disregarding skills (drains, red skills) and quick, high burst damage (spikes, drains).

 

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The fact is, it is considered acceptable and standard for a group of rogues - that don't even necessarily need to be max level - to jump in, destroy the boss in seconds, and take the loot. Because they have upfront HP% based drains. This is about making it more fair for all involved more than anything. This behaviour as it stands is frankly unacceptable.
The proposed change manages to address this while still not actually nerfing rogues, so it's a lot fairer for all involved.

The fact that they can do this, and completely destroy the purpose of the boss to begin with in the process is ridiculous and I don't know why people are trying to argue otherwise. How is this a "stupid point"?
I agree - nerfing things is bad. Rogues have drawn the short end of the stick a few times lately, so all things considered, the previous change is not... great.

For one, this whole situation is created by your own accord with putting Isiloon in a set spot, in cz, with a notice about it's spawn. If Isiloon was spawning in abyss - as intended - we wouldn't be having this problem. 

As for rogues getting the drop... so? That's one of the benefits of their class. Do rogues complain that they can't kill a greed in 30 seconds without being touched by it? Do rogues complain that they can't clear 30 people camping at cz monument with one skill? Do rogues complain that they cant kill a full EW lure in 20 seconds solo? Each class have their benefits and rogues has always been they're great at taking bosses.

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The DoT is a viable solution to these problems. They retain all their damage, but allow everyone a chance to kill the boss while keeping it alive for quite a bit longer - even if that's not *too* long.

Meh, I'm not against the DoT solution. I'm against the reason and way ( or seemingly so ) it was implemented. To cater to the mage teams who are whining that they can't get Isiloon. Mages already have the biggest advantage in PK and Farm (they literally control the fragment market) and now you want to cater to their whims so they can control Isiloon too. You already secretly buffed them recently by re-enabling additional MP damage (how come that was never in patch notes and just DM'd to select people btw?) and now your making changes to the fundamentals of the game to make scenarios around the most valuable boss that once again, favours them. 

 

 

[IGeisha]

the problem here is, if only the talent was, the problem here is that the race that is dominant to kill the isiloon boss is that they enter the game with low-level characters without any item from that Race and kill the boss. If you were aware that if the incident was talent, they would not behave in this kind of behavior, as I mentioned above, nobody talks about the ultima in the bifrost region because they are rightfully struggling for the war and superiority they have won to get there. I think you have missed the main purpose of the issue here, this should not only be a precaution for the rogue class, but it should be done within the mage teams. But people still make suggestions to strengthen the boss's defense and raise his life. How these suggestions can make sense to people that I really don't understand.

 

[savagek]

4 minutes ago, emreman11 said:

the problem here is, if only the talent was, the problem here is that the race that is dominant to kill the isiloon boss is that they enter the game with low-level characters without any item from that Race and kill the boss. If you were aware that if the incident was talent, they would not behave in this kind of behavior, as I mentioned above, nobody talks about the ultima in the bifrost region because they are rightfully struggling for the war and superiority they have won to get there. I think you have missed the main purpose of the issue here, this should not only be a precaution for the rogue class, but it should be done within the mage teams. But people still make suggestions to strengthen the boss's defense and raise his life. How these suggestions can make sense to people that I really don't understand.

 

Then make rogue drains a level 80 skill.

How many Isiloons actually go to these noob rogues anyway? We fought against these secondary rogues from Day one on human side and we have rarely, maybe once, lost an Isiloon to them. You think it's easy keeping a low geared lvl 60 character alive in the middle of CZ bowl in some of most intense PK of the day? 

Edited June 20, 2020 by savagek

[Razordagawd]

1 minute ago, emreman11 said:

the problem here is, if only the talent was, the problem here is that the race that is dominant to kill the isiloon boss is that they enter the game with low-level characters without any item from that Race and kill the boss. If you were aware that if the incident was talent, they would not behave in this kind of behavior, as I mentioned above, nobody talks about the ultima in the bifrost region because they are rightfully struggling for the war and superiority they have won to get there. I think you have missed the main purpose of the issue here, this should not only be a precaution for the rogue class, but it should be done within the mage teams. But people still make suggestions to strengthen the boss's defense and raise his life. How these suggestions can make sense to people that I really don't understand.

Not the problem, twostars clearly said the problem lies in isi dying too quickly. These are his quotes:

"immediately killing Isiloon in CZ and sabotaging the intended PVP effect."

"which essentially solves the problem of it dying too quickly"

"consistently taking loot and killing off PVP"

So get your story straight bro. Only your clan (whoever that is) are doing this because you don't get a single one, and will continue not getting them. You're jealous. It really bothers you huh.

[IGeisha]

Then I have a very easy suggestion, look at the logs of those valuable items obtained and realize which string is taken with which characters. Nobody is stupid here, we are actively playing this game on this server, and the same thing happens every time he is born.

[twostars]

15 minutes ago, TabbyCat said:

With all due respect, if this hasn't been enough time to properly discuss an issue, in future I'd suggest doing this and testing it WITH the entire community before rolling it out live.

What, you mean like the post I just made, here in this thread, that you're replying to?

Or are we just completely ignoring this for the sake of the narrative you guys are trying to push, that completely isn't entirely about your own personal gain? I'm tired of the crap, it's not hard to see through.
So here's the thing - for those of us truly being objective, we can see something needed to be done, we discussed it, and rather than burying our heads in the sand and pretending nothing is wrong because "KO is KO and should never be touched... because it benefits us", we came up with a potential solution. And it was discussed.

You guys are literally just arguing that "it's not an issue" [because we benefit the most from it], and this is precisely, *precisely* the reason why we have a larger range of people discussing this privately than just one clan.

You guys "want communication". You guys "want to be more involved".
And then you guys fail to actually contribute anything meaningful to a discussion because it's apparently hard to be objective about anything.

And then it's our fault that we "don't communicate enough".

Well, congratulations. This thread is now closed and there will be no more further public discussion on the matter.
Don't say we didn't try.