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YouGotPwndByMyAss

Holy Knight Armors, Warrior&Sin Damages.

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Why does this server have Holy Knight Armors??? And why it got released so fast while it's the latest expansion in Usko even after the Darkness Weapons expansion???

This Armor doesn't make any sense in ApexKO. But it does in USKO because in Usko before it's added in the server people already walking with +21rev weapons and +11 rev armors and they also have red pots!

So they let people with low items go for this set at +7 so they can enter the battle at Cz against people with Shells+21 krowaz+11 ETC. And no way those armors will get +11/+21 in there specially because of the value on it.

It's better to remove this armor already it's to tanky and it takes skill out of this game! Krowaz is actually already tank enough!!!

 

Then we watch warrior damage in start of apexko the cry echo got nerfed and sins got nerfed aswell. Later on around 2016 august warrior aoe damage got nerfed + shorter range and they changed aoe in the closer u throw the aoe on the target the more damage it does. This isn't like in usko :D Also sins have so bad cp lucky and alot fail damages also not like that in Usko.

So warriors got -15 Str on battle cry, No red pots, Nerfed Cry Echo, Low damage aoe+short range+fail hits.

Now i want to show you all something in Usko.

Warrior In USKO 2 shotting a full Dragon Scale&Shell+10 warrior:

Quote

 

4100 Damage in Usko but apexko 2000 on malice/torment :D (Even lower on priests):

Quote

 

Even 1 shot without divide as warrior :P:

(All see this people are not so good that's why they die so fast not equipping defensive items or getting cured fast so they will die! In apexko can make many mistake and still easily survive because of all those nerfs and low damage cap + fail damages and bad cp lucky and to tanky armors.

 

On Full Debuffs if you don't change ur items or descent or get cure fast ur dead!! Always dead. This is what people wants skill pk instead of lucky chaos curses and z skill slide pk lmao.

Even priests will die in 1 second if they don't cure fast enough to like 1 sin or 1 warrior. But in ApexKO you need 5 warriors to go on a priest and then it still can survive very easily! Or you need a lightning mage to attack for big cancel.

Literally the way you kill people in usko with only malice&parasite is like how you kill some1 in apexko with malice&parasite&divide.

 

Sins in Usko full 1/2 shots 11:53 - 18:50 @IIIAmJohnWick something 4u :D:

Quote

 

Ever seen things like this in ApexKO??? This is only possible with Divide+malice+parasite else it's not possible. 

 

Server have to low damage cap and have to much fail hits. And to strong armors. Remember oldtime apexko Dragon Scale+7/shell set+8 & raptors+11 shards+11 + old cry echo and 15 str battle cry and also sins good damage  this is what we want again and not z skill pk #Unskilled PK.

 

You guys say -15 STR = Official behavior but where are the red pots duration undy sc ibexis if it's Official Behavior??? Where aoe range warrior and why sin so much fail hit??? 

I think should delete this holy knight armor and add them after there are some darkness weapons+11 in the server lol....

And fix fail damages and rollback the old cry echo damage and fix sin cp + fail damages. Mages should stay like this have very nice damage just need reduce stun rate a little bit and it will be fine. :D

 

If We don't add red pots and rollback old damages it will become a TankKO wait till CrazyTime have holy knight sets+11 have fun hitting 300 on eachother np

 

PS: Remove Cube mages and this smokescreen skill already from this game. Ty. People only use it to troll people or to annoy people which they hate. + Buff Int BP's so @BroOk will be happy :D

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I agree with what YouGotPwndByMyAss has stated 100%. The way ApexKO pk has become is way too defensive style play. The beauty of this game that is not matched in any other MMORPG ever created is the skill based display and time coordination that takes place in the pvp setting of colony zone. Hell this game gives a really strong high during pk which I am certain at a given point in your individual KO careers you all have experienced. @Aesteris@twostars. Please let us, your loyal player base experience the good old style of pk in colony zone we so desperately thirst for. All we ask is that you simply accommodate the defensive based builds in-game and have a "balanced" offensive available to the individual player to stimulate similar experiences of the players mentioned in the videos posted above by YouGotPwndByMyAss.

I am certain you understand what we are asking for. Surely in USKO as each expansion is added to its prior was only reasoning to instill new materials for 1) farming purposes , 2) making new comers more competitive against more highly geared players with older gears. But that's it .. it's just to make them competitive. The scenario that is going on here is that the recent new expansion that was released UTC expansion along with the increased beginner gear at the gear dispenser in moradon broke this balance.  Average gear for the individual player increased in terms of tankyness and defense. However, nothing increased overall in terms of incentives to provide more damage capabilities. Now sure there are UTC weapons released but they are locked at +8....(What are we supposed to do with that?) You have to provide a medium of increased damage capabilities just as you provided increased capabilities for tankyness and defense. There has to be a consistent balance. Rather what HAS happened is a decrease in damage capabilities as YouGotPwndByMyAss has mentioned.

This suggests an overall trend in the server making pk more dull and gang based pk. Such as that many of you have seen certain "clans" (I won't mention names) that simply run in gangs in order to make kills. Do we really want to play in a server where a full party of players chases down 1 player for achieving a kill.

Now I know that many of you do not want to have more damages based capabilities included in the server simply because you think a certain class will be over-powered but you have to understand that when it gets to pk it is a matter of time-based coordination. So that argument to say that a certain class then becomes over-powered is build on flawed logic and thereby false.

Let's take into account this phenomenon by looking at trends @ Apexko.

First expansion was level 80. Full shells, Bifrost weapons, only weapon breaker at the time (in terms of jamadar) (maybe or maybe not red pot. This was perhaps prior to its removal from game). At this point pk was amazing and skill based pk could take place. (Max uniques were +2)

Second expansion was level 83 and Dragon Armors took the stage such as mythrils, dragon scales, and etc. (Pk at this point enabled for skill based pk as well as dragon armors were not that tanky and +9 bifrost weapons were evident at that time) (May or may have included rosetta armors)

Third expansion which was krowaz + felankor took place. Now we see the addition of a strong armor but it is balanced even though red pot is removed. we have choas weapons introduced in game AND max uniques are increased to +3 as well as felankor rings introduction.

At this point there is no expansion released but Holy armors are introduced in game. Where is the increased damage capabilities introduced to balance this ?

Fourth expansion is released (the recent one - UTC) where the only balanced form of damage capability is UTC weapons which are locked at +8. Uniques are still Maxed at +3. Surely, aratat, taurus, pontus rings are introduced ingame but they are a negligble introduction as their about the equivalent of the ring of felankor.

Seeing the bigger picture ? The overall trend? (I didn't not represent all the nerfings that took place as well).

There has been a severe decreased in damage capibilities as opposed to defensive capibilities consequently affecting the balance and the style of pk that takes place in colony zone. It has shifted to more gang style pk where mobs of people attack and chase single players till the end of the colony zone map only to find they have towned. Even with priest debuffs, damaged targets have become too tanky and can easily outlast significant hits which should have ended the opponent 3-4 hits prior. This takes fun out of the game. Playing should be about skill and timing movements.

This is a very crucial reason to why red pots NEED to be introduced in game. To offset the imbalance of the introduction of holy knight armors. Normal pk as represented in the video showing usko skills is how pk should be.

I am very certain in the long run when holy 9 are made in the server, pk will significantly diminish as the FORM of pk will change due to the extensive tankyness of the players. People will lose taste of skill based pk and you will have gangs of players just chasing down 1 player. Sure its only 50 more ac (holy armor 9 set as compared to krowaz 9 set) but with that logic isn't that the same as saying red pot is only a 10% increase in AP where attack scroll is just about the same increase in attack power as well. Not to mention there is also blue pot which increases ac by 10% if players so chose to prefer that. 

This is my 2 cents.

I won't introduce it now but later on you guys have to do something about anvil rates being maxed out at +9. Practically everyone nowadays has +9s. Sometime in the future the anvils rates have to be increased. +13 REV is not a bad implementation.

 

 

 

Edited by IIIAmJohnWick

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i kinda agree with all. pk now is so tanky its very hard to kill big partys with 2 /3 priest runing in bowl.

delented holy knight armor right now will be a problem theres players who farm them already others who have set etc ( ive many of those sheets also) not fair for all those players to be honest.

what they can do is simple add more AP to assasins. make their CP works finally good.

red pot ? i dont thinkg they will do.

mages = they are very good right now . even if stun its kinda creazy.

int priest = more dmg please.

 

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1 hour ago, BroOk said:

i kinda agree with all. pk now is so tanky its very hard to kill big partys with 2 /3 priest runing in bowl.

delented holy knight armor right now will be a problem theres players who farm them already others who have set etc ( ive many of those sheets also) not fair for all those players to be honest.

what they can do is simple add more AP to assasins. make their CP works finally good.

red pot ? i dont thinkg they will do.

mages = they are very good right now . even if stun its kinda creazy.

int priest = more dmg please.

 

Maybe they change holy knight for krowaz at higher rebirth or for UTC weapons or KC.

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100% Agree with both Pwnd and Johnwick

To kill someone someone without debuff and divide is such a struggle!!

Duration and redpo could be a good way of draining coins from the server

Edited by TheSupplier

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You've explained everything right, buddy. but now a GM will come and say that we are not using the same client with a usko. And he will say that we are thinking of my players. Then this server will not improve unless you ask your GM and admiral friends to read your own notifications. They can do pretty good things if they consider the videos of the movies.

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3 minutes ago, Allanoon said:

You've explained everything right, buddy. but now a GM will come and say that we are not using the same client with a usko. And he will say that we are thinking of my players. Then this server will not improve unless you ask your GM and admiral friends to read your own notifications. They can do pretty good things if they consider the videos of the movies.

I agree my friend. A change needs to be made, this pk style nowadays in colony zone is disgusting and boring. @Aesteris. @twostars. Please consider what we are saying. @Vivaldi

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actually yes they must to do something . already new comers and mages are happy . moradon activity is good many offline merchants helping .

But Cz right now is abit bored sometimes. agree with the different time players there cant be balanced but if is like this as every GM and more players saying. can some one explain me why when theres FELANKOR ULTIMA or even ISILOON orc side coming out with 10 partys to camp it ? during the bosses pk its funny as hell and sometimes it stay like that for 1 hour max.

Make cp 100% already give a try at least.

Make HP BUILD priest able to dead more easy so freaking tanker since first day apexko :S unreal easy to tank 10 warriors then 1 mage can kill you solo cuz creazY CAST + STUN + CURSE np.

Make finally Bps able to make fair dmg compared to MP KURIANS or MP MAGES...

Give warriros their 15 str back already.  if u do that increase abit more FR mages dmg still not enough imo. LR is creazy btw.

Felankor diying tooo fast still.. GMs u must consider theres always at least 3 PARTYS from 1 clan killing it always + random partys and other clans thats so many players on bosses time .

 

 

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1 hour ago, BroOk said:

But Cz right now is abit bored sometimes. agree with the different time players there cant be balanced but if is like this as every GM and more players saying. can some one explain me why when theres FELANKOR ULTIMA or even ISILOON orc side coming out with 10 partys to camp it ? during the bosses pk its funny as hell and sometimes it stay like that for 1 hour max.

Felankor diying tooo fast still.. GMs u must consider theres always at least 3 PARTYS from 1 clan killing it always + random partys and other clans thats so many players on bosses time .

That's really it. People nowadays only saying eachother during *Ultima* & *Felankor* there is pk so when it's dead they go moradon afk merchanting or logout wait for next respawn.

Then we watch other things like you have very gg pk and then a event comes and after the event they're not coming back :(

And that biffrost makes me the most mad! Everyone goes to farm 0 pk in Colony Zone for 2 hours! And they're farming armors that will destroy the pk later or make people complain even harder because of 0 damage in future.

And if you raid the people that are farming those mobs they going to swear you in letter #More drama.

 

3 Parties from 1 clan killing it always this is so true! And if they cannot kill the other nation they go log sins on the other nation to kill the felankor faster for the Felankor box #Pk finished so it doesn't really help at all.

 

I remember before Ultima's & Holy Knight Armors 80vs80 always pk. And i only see some pk for a short time during Felankor/Ultima now.. Which was before 24/7 at Colony Zone.

 

For example this before all those stupid patches & updates! at this date 12-29-2016 :

2d2dbug.png

Before always easily 20-30k + on the board in short time. Now it's hard to get like 15k and the pk is already dead or you need stay all day long at cz.

And we all know the damage cap have something to do with it also!! People can make alot failures and mistakes and still survive and never die.

Ultima's , New armors, Nerfs, item Valuee lose! 2 times Made alot of players quit! Specially the sin players :(

Edited by YouGotPwndByMyAss

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I have a feeling that there is a Vivaldi coming soon saying that ultima makes the server filled with pk. (Which is not true)

And that the damages are exact the same as in Usko so it was all for nothing once again. (Which is not true)

So we all can keep sliding Harunga's and Atrosses with Murky Of Great Confusion. (Which is true)

 

 Anyways. Thanks everyone for ur support!!! Specially u guys @IIIAmJohnWick @BroOk

Edited by YouGotPwndByMyAss

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26 minutes ago, YouGotPwndByMyAss said:

I have a feeling that there is a Vivaldi coming soon saying that ultima makes the server filled with pk. (Which is not true)

Unfortunately, no. I won't say it because there's no reason to keep repeating myself to the same exact people with the same exact complaints.

 

26 minutes ago, YouGotPwndByMyAss said:

And that the damages are exact the same as in Usko so it was all for nothing once again. (Which is not true)

I'd like to offer you with this piece of advice so, remember: if you ever want to get a point across and be listened therefore taken seriously, you must provide evidence to your claim, bring data to the table. Provide us with proof that the damages are different between Apex and Official Knight Online servers and we will take it seriously. Saying "it's not true" means absolutely nothing. We thankfully have the blessing of being able to count with twostars' and Aesteris' expertise and work based on reverse engineering, long sessions of testing and gathering data to build something reliable and precise. We don't work based on videos of people "two hitting each other" and empty claims like yours.

 

Best regards,

Vivaldi.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Vivaldi said:

Vivaldi: Unfortunately, no. I won't say it because there's no reason to keep repeating myself to the same exact people with the same exact complaints.

exact same people??? That's a funny one. Entire server except the Archer players making those complaints and you have to remember not everyone in ApexKO is using the forum or don't know how to use it because they are not english or to Young.

Vivaldi: I'd like to offer you with this piece of advice so, remember: if you ever want to get a point across and be listened therefore taken seriously, you must provide evidence to your claim, bring data to the table. Provide us with proof that the damages are different between Apex and Official Knight Online servers and we will take it seriously. Saying "it's not true" means absolutely nothing. We thankfully have the blessing of being able to count with twostars' and Aesteris' expertise and work based on reverse engineering, long sessions of testing and gathering data to build something reliable and precise. We don't work based on videos of people "two hitting each other" and empty claims like yours.

So showing you people 1-2 shotting eachother on full +10 dragon scales/shells and +8/+11 krowaz means nothing??? I wish there was 1 Usko GM/Admin in this server and i'm sure he was all day complaining and show you guys the differences. And good order with patches. And if i remember good Alpha actually left the staff because you guys didn't listen to him and he is the only GM that actually played this game and knows how everything works. I remember you said u (Actually never played it) and i remember Aesteris didn't know about chaos curses which my clan explained him around start 2016 and he didn't know Holy Knight Armor had more defense then Krowaz after he put the holy knight in the server. Then we have Sierra and Omega i barely see them online or helping people. And Eos what is he doing??? haven't heard a sign of him since he enter the staff team. (MERET asking for him about a month now)

I have never ever 1-2 shotted some1 in ApexKO since the pk patch without divide and then i'm also counting red pots in Lunar Wars. 

Parasite&Malice i need to 4 shot and then the target will die but in 4 shots the guy is already 100 times cured and healed or descented away. 

But in Usko i have 2 shotted alots of people then i'm talking about Manes was actually the same as start apexko 2015-2016 on dragon scales & raptors and without all those stupid nerfs and tard armor like Holy Knight.

And what actually kills me is that you guys ask us to do this stuff. Why you guys don't let Omega/Eos/Sierra go out their chair and test everything in both servers? Not that hard if i know well Omega have a account in Ares to test stuff out. And also u guys should pk sometimes as a rogue in ApexKO and check how hard you will get destroyed and try to feel how everyone feels in ApexKO.

Priests&Warriors in Usko with gab's +8/+9 with para+malice if they don't cure themselves or counter cure the enemy they are dead to 1 sin and 1 warrior in 2 sec. In ApexKO if that happens he can go downstairs make some fries and comeback cure himself and still survives. This 2 shot only happens in ApexKO with Torment&Divide without kurian it's all impossible.

You guys should rollback all the nerfs 2015 19 dec - 2015 31 dec  all classes did alot of damage back then. If those video's above doesn't help you. You should really log on apexko and try to do this stuff then i'm talking about full holy knight set+11 full str/dex uniques+3 trying to kill others with lower items no way it will be like that like in Usko. (only with Divide in apex.)

 

  • The Damage is to low in ApexKO on Warriors,Sins,BP'S and to many fail hits.
  • Patches are not in order. Usko: Cursed Weps>Krowaz>UTC>Draki>Darkness>Holy Knight Armor ----- ApexKO: Cursed Weps>Krowaz>Draki>HolyKnight>UTC>Darkness? This one makes me cry
  • The GM'S are inactive. Sierra,Omega,Eos (And them im specially talking about ingame for people that don't use forums or don't understand it or people that want to ask some questions) #Eos for all turkish ones.
  • Making people lose their item value was a horibble idea. Doesn't matter the people were stupid or whatever it's lost. You literally made them waste all their time.
  • PK=Ultima has spawned u count to 60 And it's dead. And everyone goes to moradon.
  • Something i add just now. Maybe decrease all of people their NP'S by 90-95% Will make turkish mages comeback because they like Symbols and if u decrease 90-95% all the people still keep their symbol DuckOwnz keep his Dragon but it's easier to catchup for newer players! 

And trust me i'm not the only one talking like this there are alots of people that are like me. It's getting boring playing in TankKO/GangBangKO/UnskilledKO/StunKO.

PS: U guys should know urselfs what u have done wrong and why u lost the players and maybe think how to solve that problem! But i have said alot of stuff in here it's not on me to change your server if you want to keep it like this gonna be a big Ghost Town incoming 2018 months. But i gotta say i have enjoyed in 2015 - 2016 and a little in 2017.

And it's good the server is actually up since 2015 19 December. Positive things also can be said! Thumbs up for that one.

Best regards,

Vivaldi.

i255xd.png

 

 

 

Edited by YouGotPwndByMyAss

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12 minutes ago, YouGotPwndByMyAss said:

test everything in both servers?

Again, and now for the last time: everything is and was tested with actual rates calculation, a vast gathering of data and collection of precise evidence to actually be able to reverse engineer it all and emulate a server, a process of years. This is an actual scientific method, you must learn to differ it from visual claims and guessing games. So your view and complaints remain on being null, I'm sorry.

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1 hour ago, Vivaldi said:

Unfortunately, no. I won't say it because there's no reason to keep repeating myself to the same exact people with the same exact complaints.

 

I'd like to offer you with this piece of advice so, remember: if you ever want to get a point across and be listened therefore taken seriously, you must provide evidence to your claim, bring data to the table. Provide us with proof that the damages are different between Apex and Official Knight Online servers and we will take it seriously. Saying "it's not true" means absolutely nothing. We thankfully have the blessing of being able to count with twostars' and Aesteris' expertise and work based on reverse engineering, long sessions of testing and gathering data to build something reliable and precise. We don't work based on videos of people "two hitting each other" and empty claims like yours.

 

Best regards,

Vivaldi.

 

 

Hey GM vavildi true or not true thats not the point.

can you  at least once stay on the topic and respond for every player who care about pk ? u guys already did alot and doing alot to bring more players which is good this will benefit comunity and the owner ofc. but theres also old players who care about pk and not just farm. everything is fine with utc holy knight etc but can u do something also to make PK funnier? actually big bosses can be killed just by big team with some kinda of team play otherwise is really rare can see randoms party taking drop or new comers.. so why still we are giving the same big clans those easy drops ? okey u can say every1 can add 40 players to farm the drop thats true but since those big clans can farm it so easy give at least for rest the players like me give some more time to PK at least during this hours.

Felankor still  is the best moment when u can pk for myb 20 mints then cz dead.

the idea to move bifrost to cz was a good start this make hard to collect materials but  this also supposed to bring  abit the cz activity.instead this just killing the pk  nice try guys but like this not working my opinion.do something else to bring players on bifrost mobs actually people just farm bifrost with GENIE or just afq during this hours cuz so much raid by me ofc and by alot of randoms around .

i could suggest first "important" to block the UPGRADE holy knight armor to +8 and not going to +9  thats to stop the over power set in future and to make all server to collect their sets, also this will make krowaz set +11 alive and their value wont go down so fast.(actually dont know if is already blocked in +8) After u do that, make the last bosses of bifrost greed anvy etc. to drop with abit more % rate then egos. at least we would see mages party doing farm there. in future if u open this to go +9 add RED pots on server already.

ps ; PK PK PK !

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7 minutes ago, Vivaldi said:

Again, and now for the last time: everything is and was tested with actual rates calculation, a vast gathering of data and collection of precise evidence to actually be able to reverse engineer it all and emulate a server, a process of years. This is an actual scientific method, you must learn to differ it from visual claims and guessing games. So your view and complaints remain on being null, I'm sorry.

It's fun you answer just 1 subject and not the rest.

 

4 minutes ago, BroOk said:

Hey GM vavildi true or not true thats not the point.

can you  at least once stay on the topic and respond for every player who care about pk ? u guys already did alot and doing alot to bring more players which is good this will benefit comunity and the owner ofc. but theres also old players who care about pk and not just farm. everything is fine with utc holy knight etc but can u do something also to make PK funnier? actually big bosses can be killed just by big team with some kinda of team play otherwise is really rare can see randoms party taking drop or new comers.. so why still we are giving the same big clans those easy drops ? okey u can say every1 can add 40 players to farm the drop thats true but since those big clans can farm it so easy give at least for rest the players like me give some more time to PK at least during this hours.

Felankor still  is the best moment when u can pk for myb 20 mints then cz dead.

the idea to move bifrost to cz was a good start this make hard to collect materials but  this also supposed to bring  abit the cz activity.instead this just killing the pk  nice try guys but like this not working my opinion.do something else to bring players on bifrost mobs actually people just farm bifrost with GENIE or just afq during this hours cuz so much raid by me ofc and by alot of randoms around .

i could suggest first "important" to block the UPGRADE holy knight armor to +8 and not going to +9  thats to stop the over power set in future and to make all server to collect their sets, also this will make krowaz set +11 alive and their value wont go down so fast.(actually dont know if is already blocked in +8) After u do that, make the last bosses of bifrost greed anvy etc. to drop with abit more % rate then egos. at least we would see mages party doing farm there. in future if u open this to go +9 add RED pots on server already.

ps ; PK PK PK !

Not really talking only about Krowaz+11. I'm talking about Exc True Silvers+11, Dragon Scale Family+11, Krowaz +8 & krowaz +11.

Felankor is not always 20 min sometimes it's dead in 1 min.

Ultima today which dropped me a iron belt+1 died in 20 seconds. This doesn't give pk but it destroys it so does the biffrost.

About blocking those holy knight to go +11 is a perfect idea! And a good time to cancel it right now. Because nobody have it +11 yet.

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1 minute ago, YouGotPwndByMyAss said:

About blocking those holy knight to go +11 is a perfect idea! And a good time to cancel it right now. Because nobody have it +11 yet.

cancel it i dont think is  good idea crhis. new comers still can famr this and just go to +8 then straight to pk + also moving the economy of items on moradon. we must stuck this armor on +8 thats for sure. otherwsie soon we will see chinese cominuty with set +11

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@Vivaldi. @twostars. @Aesteris. Please provide me with a response to what I have posted. I have provided evidence to my claim through the suggestions listed in my post in the trends of Apexko from its very beggining. I simply ask you to tell me from your point of view 1) what you think of this situation that is now evidently present in pk in apexko now 2) What forms of changes WILL be made if any to accomodate the tanky/defensive increase capabilities with increase attack based capabilities.  Please, I am quite curious to hear your response.

 

- J Wick.

Loyal Sin since 2016.

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49 minutes ago, BroOk said:

cancel it i dont think is  good idea crhis. new comers still can famr this and just go to +8 then straight to pk + also moving the economy of items on moradon. we must stuck this armor on +8 thats for sure. otherwsie soon we will see chinese cominuty with set +11

If you understand me perfectly i meant cancel to go +11. But np :D 

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6 minutes ago, MON5TER said:

Holy fuck, i was 2nd with 57k? YOK LIFE 

Ps. Vivaldi that was the best english i have seen in this forum, i almost cried it was that good.

The pk nowadays needs to be able to replicate this same phenomenon of high ladder points. The only way that is possible is to make pk more skill based and time-coordination. This is why it is so important that the admins/gms recognize what we are trying to say so we can bring this back. Thank you for sharing this picture reflecting ladder ranks from "the good ol' days".

 

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